WHO IS A JEW ?
A Debate and Discourse
Presented by Sammy Benjamin with comments received in an open forum.
"I am the God of Avraham, Isshak and Yakov"
"I mean well and I have an open mind,
I will learn if somebody can convince me why I am wrong in what I have
proven so far." - Samuel Benjamin.
May God give me Courage, Strength and Perseverance in this task
that he has assigned to me. Even with this extreme
effort by certain people/group to split the Jews based on their origin and
looks.
Video 0 : Shema
It is INDISPUTABLE
that we are children of
Avraham, Isshak
and Yakov.
It is written ALL over in our holy
scriptures.
Then, Why am I told that a Jew can only be Jewish if his mother is Jewish.
Father does not matter in this determnation ???
The most learned people will not
even tackle this issue as it is too sensitive and they do not wish to give
their personal comments on such a controversial issue. Yet others will accept it just because it was written as
such and they were told to accept it and they will do so without even looking
at the facts.
Why are we afraid that we will FIND THE TRUTH?
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Updated
July 8th 2010
When a Rabbi asked me if I was a Levi or a Cohen and if I was
from Sephardic or Ashkenazim community, I naively answered, I am a JEW.
Video 1
Feb 4th 2010 – 12:52PM
The topic about conversions is a heated one and an integral part of this
discourse "WHO IS A JEW ?". I am adding it
to my list of items to fix.
The COMPLETE problem I wish to solve is real simple (yet made extremely
complex) and is summarized below :
1. Reinstate the
original covenant of FATHER being the natural giver of the Jewish faith to his
children. Optionally continue in ADDITION that the mother can ALSO give Jewish
faith to her children. In BOTH cases, allow the individual to decide what s/he
wants to follow and make sure s/he meets the minimal standards of being Jewish
that are acceptable to Judaism irregardless of how they became Jewish.
2. Accept converted Jews from those sources/countries
where it was done with good faith and intentions with the best resources
available to them in those countries. If there are enough Jewish people (5-10)
who can give in writing as an affidavit that the converted Jew has demonstrated
in good faith that they lived like Jews with good intend, then they deserve to
be accepted legally as Jews and not have to fight the system and be persecuted
like what is happening today.
Enforce BOTH these line items and other
problems like discrimination and equal recognition will be resolved as a
positive side effect of doing things the right way without bias or
prejudice or racial preferences.
PS: No word for rabbis, nor any leads to reach the
main orthodox rabbis in the Israeli government who hold the keys to solve these
problems. 
The quest continues ............
IMPORTANT FOREWORD &
DISCLAIMER
In an effort to expose the facts I have been making remarks
about Europeans, White Jews and orthodox Rabbis. I realize that more than
90% of these folks I know as my dear friends and
have nothing to do with the negative remarks that I have made. I always meant well and still do.
My remarks were only intended to show to ALL what the system had done to
certain groups of Jews and how it is affecting/dividing the Jewish community as
a whole.
I apologize to those who have nothing to do with
this and have always been my well wishers and I hope will continue to be so.
If I am wrong in any of my inferences and presenting of the facts which are
solely my own opinions based on information I have known, learned and
researched, I take full responsibility for it and will engage with anybody who
will point out where I am wrong with what I am presenting.
If I have exposed those who did not intend to have their comments be made
public, then I apologize to them as well. Please let me know this wish so I can
keep your identity anonymous or not share your emails at your request.
However it is important
that people speak up, even in anonymity to provide real life experiences, so
that the folks who control/make Judaic laws know where/why it is hurting some
of us who want equal recognition as Jews.
In this forum it is my intention to solve and
reinstate the fatherly passing of Judaism to his children and a man's role in
moving forward his clan/tribe/generations. A side effect will be to
minimize/abolish any discrimination that exists in the Jewish communities
around the world. A pretty daunting task for a little person
like me to do alone. Hence my call for support,
cooperation and understanding from all those who are connected to this matter
and care about it.
But I do believe in my heart that it is INDISPUTABLE that we are children of Avraham Isshak and Yakov. It is written ALL over in our holy scriptures.
Shalom & Peace to all.
Regards,
Sammy
REQUEST : READ ENTIRE INTORDUCTION TO GET THE FULL
PICTURE
Some folks are getting pulled into this heated debate late
in the cycle, but I believe every Jew has the right to comment in this matter.
If this is not something you wish to discuss you can safely delete these
emails, mark them as SPAM (hence never receive any emails from me) or ask me to
remove you from my AllJews
list. You can forward this email as you
feel appropriate.
It saddens me that many Jews are afraid of revealing the truth. I am concerned
to hear that people are afraid to provide input because they fear negative
backlash at work or home or they do not want to get wrapped around in this
controversy. I wish to protect the identity of those who write to me with their
personal experiences and opinions. Please us the web link to
provide your anonymous or self-identified feedback. It is SAFE. Of course you
can always email me by replying to this/any email.
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You can
enter your feedback here Anonymously.
Put "NONE" in place where you wish not to provide information.
http://bbvii.com/feedback2/1.html
Let the truth be known so we can make the right decision in
this matter. Look at the facts only and avoid being judgmental on topics on who
is a better Jew.
The issues on hand are :
- Reinstate the original covenant that the FATHER is the
passer of Jewish descent to his children. The Mother is equally important
to do her part in raising the children but not the automatic passer of the
Jewish descent as changed and documented today. This rule is being used
as the IMPORTANT criteria to allow people to immigrate to
- Open discussion that BOTH the Father or Mother can be
passer of Jewish descent to their children. Raising children as Jewish is
in the responsibility of parents. Being/Remaining Jewish is in the hands
of the children after their 13th birthday for boys and 12th birthday for girls.
- Identify and Stop the discrimination of ethnic Jews
from third world countries as opposed to Jews from other advanced
countries.
- All Jews should have to produce the same paperwork to
become an Israeli citizen regardless of which country of origin they come
from. While customs and traditions differ from country to country, there
cannot be just one form of documents mandated by the orthodox rabbinate
that are deemed valid to prove ones Jewishness.
- Accept that being Jewish is difficult and even in one’s
lifetime, the most orthodox Jew can only hope
that he has been living with 100% compliance to our Torah rules. Hence
allow for tolerance in variance of strictness that people use to live
their life like Jews as long as the important guidelines/traditions are
followed.
- If a Jew chooses to breaks all his
covenants, then it is between him and God and he is basically cheating
himself and not any one of us.
Revisit my web site "WHO IS A JEW?"
(link below) where I have documented the communication
in this matter. Send your comments on any
specific item/s to give your perspective/experiences and help make a difference
to arrive at the right answer.
I will update this web site as I receive more
information. My intend is to get as much relevant information as possible and
then present it to those who can make a decision about what is RIGHT and what
is WRONG (some of us already know in our heart what the answers are).
Regards,
Sammy
WHO IS A JEW ?
Thee has always been a debate about how the origin of
a Jewish child is determined. Whether his father provides this trait or the
mother does. Per the Torah, the FATHER provides this trait to his children.
Hence the scriptures over and over repeat the resounding
words of "Son of Avraham, Issac
and Yakov" and NEVER even mentions
once "Son of Sarah, Ribka nd
Leah".
Of course ALL Jews do not agree with this biblical commandment. Becasue I think we Jews like to have something to argue
about and disagree in principle whenever we get a chance to do so 
.
I have my very strong feelings and beliefs that I can back up with facts. But I
wanted to hear for the learned folks on this list out there who can help shape
my understanding. However please quote facts along with your statements as I
will have mine to challenge them if you differ for the ORIGINAL BIBLICAL
COMMANDMENT as mentioned above.
Here is my basic challenge to the interpreted version of the quotes that is
saying that now the mother shall have the right to pass on the Jewish trait to
her children.
(Important text highlighted in red) (My comments in blue)
The Mishna in Tractate Kiddushin (who is the
author????) 66b states that if a child's mother
is not Jewish, then the child is not Jewish.
"When the L-rd your G-d brings you to the land
that you will inherit, many nations will fall away before you; the Hittites, the Girgashites, the
Amorites, the Canaanites, the Prizites, the Hivites and the Jebusites (it is pointing to
specific tribes) ... And you shall not marry
with them (pointing to these tribes) ; do not give your
daughters to his sons and do not take his daughters for your sons. (indicates NO INTER
MARRIAGE allowed)" For he (the gentile father) will turn your son away from me and they will worship other
gods...." (the gentile father
will drive the son away from our God)
(Now this is interpretation that follows ) - The Talmud points out that the verse only seems to
be concerned with the son of the Israelite woman being turned away, "for he (the gentile)" will turn your son away. It does not seem to be concerned that "she (the gentile) will turn your son away." (it agrees with my comment that that the father will
decide what his son should follow - NOT the mother - mother will not turn the
son away, this is never mentioned directly, just interpreted as such - even so
mother has no importance in this matter, except for this interpretation) The implication is that the son of the Jewish woman and
gentile man is still considered "your (the
Jewish grandfather in this case )
son," (AH! it truly is the grandather/male that decides the fate of her
sons religion ) but in the case of a gentile
woman married to a Jewish man, the child is not
considered "your son" (atrociously unacceptable biased interpretation without any
factual basis) and therefore there is no concern about his turning away (a WEAK RACIST ASSUMPTION based on what this person wanted
to prove based on his own PERSONAL VIEWS).
This follows Rashi and
Original text here : http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/202/Q1/
YOUR COMMENTS PLEASE !
I NEED TO NAIL THIS
DOWN IN THIS LIFETIME
Regards,
Sammy.
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WHAT COULD BE THE REASON/S THE ORIGINAL COVENENT WAS CHANGED?
I waited patiently for all responses on WHO
IS A JEW and got a few good faith ones from those who are willing to address
this question. I was able to reply to any statements that indicated that mother
is the passer of the Jewish faith to her children and disprove it. I did not
hear any conflicting arguments about my responses.
That does not mean they agree with me. Most people have resolved themselves to the book answer
and have shut off their minds. So I will go ahead and provide the final straw
that will prove it beyond doubt WHY THE MOTHER IS NOT THE ABSOLUTE PASSER
OF JEWISH FAITH TO HER CHILDREN. THE FATHER IS.
SO HERE IT IS : The
background upon which I will lay down the reasons why the original and TRUE
BIBLICAL COMMANDMENT was changed from "The FATHER is the provider of his faith to his children" TO "The mother (who survives her husband) will do so".
Throughout history there have been civilizations
who believed and accepted that and it is the MAN
moves his family ahead. It is accepted worldwide in ALL religions. Civilizations with evil intentions knew this as
well. They wanted to expand
their religion in a hurry by converting everybody they could or STOP the
growth of their competition. Keep in mind, they
all believed that MAN is the dominant
partner (still a true statement). The WOMAN is the provider of the offspring
that allow the MAN to continue his faith.
This is the reason that prompted these events that are recorded in history:
·
The Egyptian pharaohs killed the MALE children
of Hebrew slaves, not the FEMALE. Mainly, to prove that the slave dynasty could
be severely diminished and controlled. The Pharaoh wanted to ensure that no
Hebrew slave male offspring would become the reason for the downfall of
·
Genghis Khan terrorized the world to
spread his race all over the Middle East and
- During the World War 2 many women had children but it
was unsure who the father was because they were a victim of forced rape by
Germans and others in power. Single girls
and young women were often raped, despite the fact that the 1935 Law for
the Protection of German Blood and German Honor prohibited intercourse
between Aryans and Jews.
To
BREAK this thinking and to prevent ones faith from becoming extinct it was
important to change the original biblical rule that “the MAN was the provider
of his faith to his children” to “the WOMAN will be the provider of her faith
to her chilldren”. I think most Ashkenazim believe this as a verbatim LAW,
whereas Sephardic Jews still hold on to the ORIGINAL BELIEF. With this change
all illegitimate children born to all Jewish women coming from ANY mixed faith
is GIVEN THE ASSUMED RIGHT TO BE CONSIDERED JEWISH, irregardless of WHO
THE FATHER WAS.
If anybody has any arguments up to here, I
will like to hear from you. If you don't agree with this, then you will
NOT agree with anything else I have to say. But I request you to
read to the end before responding.
The RIGHT TO BE A JEW should come both from
FATHER and MOTHER. However it should NOT BE FRIVILOUSLY FORCED UPON THEM if the
person does not willfully wish to follow their inherited faith. This should apply to ALL Jews living in the
world as well as in
The right questions to ask to find the answer to “WHO IS A JEW?” are:
- Do you want to be a Jew ?
- Do you follow the Jewish customs and traditions
(per your origins) ?
- Do you impart Jewish traditions and beliefs to your children ?
- Do you honor the Judaic laws that will keep you Jewish?
- Do you believe in traditions such as the circumcision, Barmitzva, Kashrut, Shabbath, The high holidays etc.
- Others that help you remain Jewish?
Firstly, this will allow all Jews who have lived as such, the right to be
recognized as Jews. It will provide a channel for those who do not wish to
be Jewish to not be forced to do so.
It will allow the converted black African Jew to be proud of being Jewish, who otherwise sits on the last bench and is hesitant to actively participate in the services because he is afraid of being racially rejected by his Rabbi.
It will even provide a
channel to the non-Jews who wish to become Jewish and they can choose the level
of Judaism as long as they show good faith and can demonstrate to their
community their strong will to become Jewish.
Most importantly of
all, it will allow me to perform the barmitzva of my
son in any synagogue without being humiliated and having to produce
certificates (from GOD himself) which the orthodox rabbi of
For this reason, and this reason alone, I am ashamed of those
who call themselves good Jews but look down on other Jews and question their
desire to be so.
May God give
me strength to prove my point and get justice for all discriminated Jews in
this lifetime. Aaamen !
PS: Did I mention : It is INDISPUTABLE that we are children of Avraham,
Isshak and Yakov. It is
written ALL over in our holy scriptures.
Truly and With Best
Intentions,
Samuel
END OF INTORDUCTION
PREVIOUS
MESSAGES FOLLOW FOR YOUR REFERENCE
On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:51 AM, Sammy Benjamin <sammybenjamin@gmail.com>
wrote:
A great discourse follows with a learned Rabbi ... with my comments embedded in blue : I still need a
person who can help start a political reform discussion in Israel at the Knesset
between these two schools of though that will provide the rightful recognition
of jews without discrimination based of their place
of birth/origin. Many of my questions and comments remain unanswered ..... :
Dear Rabbi Joshua,
I truly appreciate your
response as many refrain to respond to such sensitive issues and your insight
into this matter is important to me.
I will respond to your
document with my comments embedded in your message in blue color.
If I sound negative
sometimes, do not take it personally, as I think this is a learning experience
for me and I wish to exhaust the reasons that makes me
strongly believe in what I have learned and understood about this matter.
Dear Sammy,
Shalom.
I am not sure if we have met.
Forgive me for my memory.
You have a great question that needs perusal.
Since you have already read the
rabbi's response from Ohr Sameach
I will not unnecessarily repeat the orthodox position. I will humbly try to
share with you my conclusions of the Talmudic didactic process. The views are
my own.
Although you are very
straightforward to reject the "atrociously
unacceptable biased interpretation" as it is without any factual basis, I agree with you.
At the same time I beg to differ as to the conclusion that your line of thinking
may lead to. Please bear with me as I digress.
Sammy wrote: I stand by
my statements which are based on factual information and the experiences that I
have been through in my life. To elaborate, apart form what is written in the
books, this is what I see in real life and it is far too obvious what changes
occurs in a family when a Jewish man marries a converted Jewish women which is
contrary when a Jewish woman marries a non-Jewish man. If you have lived in
Let us look at our Bene Israel History for a moment regarding a peculiar
practice.
We had a very unfortunate tradition of calling the children of converts (who
were always women married to Jewish men) as "Black
Sammy wrote: Black Jews ???? This is the first time I am hearing about
them. If this is not racism, then what is ? I am
thankful I was never a part of such a discriminatory behavior anytime in my 25
years of life in
I can think of two conclusions for
this practice.
1. Our ancestors were not sure of
the validity of the ritual that was being practiced - as Talmudic Judaism had
defined. And hence we ostracized the converts and their descendants for our
lack of knowledge.
Or
- This was one of the older
traditions practiced by our ancestors like Monotheism, Circumcision and Shabbath rest( we were known as Saniwar
telis) and did not allow sons of these women
since the conversion was not valid.
Sammy: I have never
experienced any such treatment or behaviors in my lifetime in
I beg to reject the first conclusion
on the following grounds:
- Once we were taught rabbinic
Judaism by David Rahabi, the 3 families who were
Kaziz were taught well all basic laws and I am
sure the ritual for conversion was also taught to them. Without that they
would not have converted period as they were very pious.
The second conclusion is more likely
as our ancestors had memories of Temple Centered Judaism and probably continued
a conversion process before they were taught rabbinic Judaism (by David Rahabi). This conversion would be like the conversion of
Ruth (Your God is my God and your People My people). No Beth Din, No Mikve.
If so, our God fearing
community must have had a very good reason to go against another explicit
law in the Torah of loving converts and not ostracizing them.
Sammy wrote: I am
confused by your statement that this is documented in the Torah, I
need to see it if the Torah explicitly tells us that conversions are barred and
the women is the one who passes her Judaism to her children automatically and
not the father.
I believe in the absence of clear directives regarding their conversion
process without a Beth Mikdash(Temple) and its
sacrifices, which probably was a part of ritual conversion during the Temple
era, they preferred to transgress a clear law.
Sammy wrote: I
respectfully disagree.
Why?
It could be assumed that they did
have a tradition of a Matrilineal Lineage. Hence children
from a doubtful conversion were "black" like the majority of Indians.
This certainly is not conclusive but
an attempt to connect a few dots with an example of a community which
was never subjected to rapes and persecution
to develop a tradition of matrilineal lineage as supposed.
Sammy: This is THE MOST
IMPORTANT POINT to keep in mind as I unfold my reasons of maternal lineage
preference.
Let's go back to a glaring example
you did not include from the Ohr Sameach's
Rabbi.
This is important because it is
written much before the Talmud.
The quote is from the book of Ezra
10:2-3: Some of the Jews who had returned from the exile declare, "We have
trespassed against our G-d and have taken foreign wives of the people of the
land. Yet, there is hope in
We know that the Torah forbids marriage with the non Jewess. But we do
not have a conclusive decision regarding progeny from such couples. The above
quote with the italics teaches us just that. Without a known tradition why will
the Jews be willing to put away their sons and call it commandment of God?
We certainly have a Patcrilineal tradition as the children of Abraham Isaac and
Jacob But they
were no Jews then and they married according to the dictates of Wisdom/Prophecy.
When the Torah was received at Sinai we also received an oral Matrilineal tradition.
There certainly is wisdom in this
tradition. Isn't it the mother who teaches the child
his basic fabric of values? He is helplessly dependent on her, not the father.
Along with nourishment we can be assured that he is
also nurtured in the path of her beliefs by default. The same cannot be said
about the father as even without his presence a child can grow, and in fact
will be in the presence of the women of the household (at least in the tribal
world where Judaism evolved) and learning from them their values.
Sammy wrote: This is a
LOADED ASSUMPTION that may have been true in the old ages. I think the
mother and the father BOTH provide specific traits to their children and in my
experience the father is the one who has predominantly provided the direction
of religious faith to his children. Just take me, I
have learned more about Judaism from my father than my mother, even when both
were Jews by birth. My mother was more a comforting person when I needed moral
support and healing. I am willing to agree that this can be a regional/cultural
difference between the jews
who live in Asia/Middle East versus those from Europe/Americas. Hence BOTH
these school of thoughts ARE TRUE based on REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES.
To conclude I will like to point out
that the Talmud does not interpret laws to prove them
conclusively as you expected it to do. It merely works on a given oral
tradition and hopefully tries to interpret that information from the text,
sometimes rejecting its own attempts and trying others, to help us remember
that tradition, and sharpen our skills at interpretation and logic as that it a
very treasured gift that Hashem bestowed on humans.
The reason I believe is to sharpen these tools to eventually try and "KNOW
GOD" as best as we can. But that is a topic of a different discussion.
Thanks for the patience.
Blessing and Peace
Rabbi Joshua E. K.
Sammy wrote: Thank you
for these insights that make me wiser. I accept that I am less learned that you
are and also less experienced in life. So I am willing to accept I could be
wrong in my thinking but nothing I have heard so far has changed my mind. Based
on what I have learned about this issue makes me confident that my thinking is
on the right track. My quest
continues.
Truly and Best Regards,
Sammy Benjamin.
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On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 10:55 AM, Sammy Benjamin <sammybenjamin@gmail.com>
wrote:
Some good dialogue from our friends are coming in.
However the wisest of the wise will not comment on such sensitive issues
......
Which might be due to many reasons some of them listed below .....
1. Are they stumped themselves ???
2. They rather not answer because they believe it is wrong to go against
written interpreted laws.
3. This question does not matter to them as their lives are not affected.
I believe this racial treatment of who is Jew and not a Jew using wrongly
interpreted laws has to be abolished. Who can be admitted to
When my son needs a barmitzva, I do not what to be asked to provide
documented paperwork as proof of my Jewish origins by the European based
rabbis.
I see frequently that people who were born to Jewish parents
who did not follow much tradition themselves, raise children who do not follow
any Jewish rules or traditions. However they will be honored to be the Aliah in the shul after they have
had a pork burger at a local McDonalds. IS THIS NOT A
DISGRACE TO THE TORAH ? However the silent devout non-white jew who
sits in a corner, like an idiot drives 400 miles to get his kosher meat so he
can be more Jewish and follows most of the Jewish traditions in his home is
doubted of not being a jew.
Such automatic acceptance of Jews who don't care two hoots about being jewish is accepted by the
orthodox religious rabbis while they question my
family's Jewish validity. I, nor my children
ever get called to the Torah, and I have a dilemma of where I can perform my
second child's barmitzva because my "paperwork
is not in order" of the satisfaction of some rabbi in
So to me this is very personal and I have vowed to address this injustice that
has been going on for many thousands of years and the silent victim bears
witness to these atrocities of having to follow the
orthodox enforcements of having to CONVERT to JUDAISM using their rules and
procedures to satisfy their ego of power as to who is considered Jewish and who
is not. SHAME ON ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO SOLELY GIVE
THEM THE RIGHTS TO DENY TRULY DESERVING JEWS THE RIGHT TO IMMIGRATE TO
I can only say God is watching and justice will be served one way or another.
IN GOD I TRUST. IN HUMANS I ALWAYS USE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT. 
I am not mad about this issue but rather passionate and doing the right thing
is what I seek so we can all respect each other as equally Jewish regardless of
where we came from, how weird the shape of our noses or how many shades of
colors we come in.
Ben, you should be proud to be a Jew and not worry because your mother was not
Jewish. It depends on how much Jewish you feel and whether you do your best to
follow the Jewish traditions or not. You cannot shrug your responsibility to
God because you never had a barmitzva. It is NOT
REQUIRED by hallacha to have a barmitzvah
ceremony. You are obligated by hallacha that after
the age of 13 the Jewish male become an independent
worshiper of God. So go get yourself a tallis and feel proud that you are a Jew becasue you want to be one and not becasue
people around think you are a jew or not.
BTW, just because
Does anybody know how to start a reform of laws in the Knesset
? I need to talk to the right person to get advise
on this process so we resolve the WHO IS A JEW QUESTION once and for all to
provide justice to those who are persecuted by the orthodox laws in place
today.
Aaamen !
Truly and Best Regards,
Sammy.
YOUR COMMENTS PLEASE !
I NEED TO NAIL THIS
DOWN IN THIS LIFETIME
Your comments follow
.............
Daniel B. from
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Thanks Jonathan, I don't think this is an answer to Sammy's question; any
ways I am forwarding this to him. I suggest you be on his mailing list
directly. Sammy; Jonathan Riddle is a friend of mine An American Jew
married to a Bene Israeli girl. Warm Regards Danny
Danny, There were the Jews of China, there are five families of Jews (Jewish Chinese vs Chinese Jews). They look, speak Chinese. Unfortunately
the last I looked they were still not totally accepted in If you get a chance look up the
Jews of China. Unfortunately the Labevachers
won't accept anyone. They lived down the road from my wife and I. Normally they are ok and stay themselves.
In American they have no power and are a minority in the Jewish community.
Most other Jews here think they are crazy. This is the opposite
in Later the Talmud was written
to reinterprete the Torah, again written in the
late Bronze age and during the beginning of the Iron age. The Romans at
the time were killing animals and looking at their innard in
order to predict the future and they ruled the world several
centuries. Eventually their society collapsed and came in the Dark ages
and the rise of Christianity in Here is the best lesson. Life is less about luck and more
about hard work and competition. Being competitive is important. My mother always told if you put
your mind to it you can do anything. So if something goes
wrong. I don't blame G-d nor do I ask for help.
I believe in hard work, persistence and being competitive. Jonathan
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Nissim Moses wrote on Sunday, January 10, 2010 12:13
AM :
Hello Sam Benjamin,
Attached is a dialogue between me and a friend of mine you
might find it interesting
Regards
Nissim Moses
Hi Issie,
Way back in Time When God created Adam & Eve and put
them in the Garden of Eden he instructed them to enjoy the fruits of his
creation except of two trees, 1. The tree of Life & 2.The
Tree of Knowledge.
As as it happens Eve the ancestors of Womankind generally
being smarter decide that she would eat of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge
and she shared the fruit with her husband. & suddenly Lo & Behold they
became wiser.
God of course was very angry & banished them from the Garden of Eden.That was a very High Price that Mankind paid But that
Decision was made by Adam& Eve for All Mankind That not Even God will
decide what we shall know or not know nor tell Mankind what is wrong or right
nor decide for him his course of action in life.
This Concept is firmly instituted in The Bar Mitzva
& Bat Mitzva Ceremonies of the Jewish people
where the Tell the new adult that from that day onwards he is personally
responsible for all his deeds and from then onwards it is his duty toachieve excellence in knowledge.
So who are we to give this right
ours to some Rabbi or other person to decide what we do or not do or what
is right or wrong or for that matter who is a Jew or not a Jew. As you
rightly said the opinions of sages can change but the Jewish Nation is
above this we are a people with several
traditions and a very tolerant people not a bunch of racists.
Regards
Nissim Moses
Issi wrote on 01/10/10 06:27:24
Shavouah Tov Nissen
Jewish Tradition gives
the duty to interpret what is right and wrong to the Torah Giants of each
generation, It is also legitement for the learned
scholars to disagree and may times there are more than 1 way to deal with a
given solution and then you go to the Sage you follow and abide by his ruling
Now would you go for a
brain operation to the most highly trained Neurosurgeon or to a guy who read a
couple of books and claims he knows what to do
The leading Jewish
scholars of each generation have spent 40 – 80 years studying Jewish laws and
texts and their opinions have to be respected and not that of people who find
texts and give their interpretation, there are many many
layers to the truth and in it takes more than quoting a few texts to get to the
right way So I chose their options
Issie
Nissim Moses wrote on Friday, January 08, 2010 6:25 PM :
But the sages you agree
with are wrong as per the references given in the text. So which of the sages are right. The original ones or the rabbinic interpretation of today.
Today two rabbis cannot agree with
each other.Eg. "Is Malit Shabbath Okay or not on shabbath". So if you become 80 plus &
cannot walk up to your 3rd floor apartment, you sit down on the ground floor
& pray for the sabbath
to be over ASAP.
Have a great Sabbath & Regards
to Razel
Nissim Moses
Issi wrote on 01/08/10 12:29:48
Was sent this message
and my ans or actually what I believe is that since I
am woefully ignorant Jew I have to depend on those who are more qualified and
the historical answer that the Jewish sages have given is that a child born to
a Jewish mother is Jewish and I accept that
Have a Gutten Shabbos
Issie Akerman
---------------------------------------------------
Issi wrote on Saturday, January 9, 2010 11:29 PM :
Shavouah Tov
With all respect
to your research, Jewish Tradition gives the duty to interpret what is right
and wrong to the Torah Giants of each generation, It is also legitement for the learned scholars to disagree and may
times there are more than 1 way to deal with a given solution and then you go
to the Sage you follow and abide by his ruling
Now would you go for a
brain operation to the most highly trained Neurosurgeon or to a guy who read a
couple of books and claims he knows what to do
The leading Jewish
scholars of each generation have spent 40 – 80 years studying Jewish laws and
texts and their opinions have to be respected and not that of people who find
texts and give their interpretation, there are many many
layers to the truth and in it takes more than quoting a few texts to get to the
right way So I chose their options
Issie
--------------------------------------------------
Ben Weinberg from NC wrote Saturday, January 9, 2010 10:04 PM :
Sammy! First let me say that it is not only
the Ashkenazim who follow the Matrilineal line to
determine Jewishness, it is ALL Jews with the
exception of a few small communities in Jewishly
remote areas such as
And as for the "proof" you offer from Genesis, it is no such
thing. Sure, Abraham passed his worldly belongings to his sons, but the
patriarchs predate Judaism, Sammy! The basic laws of Judaism weren't
given until Mt Sinai, which is waaaay after Abraham,
and the really nitpicky rules of the Talmud didn't really get going until the
Babylonian exile, which ended in 586 BCE! It's entirely possible that
Jews up till 586 BCE had been following some kind of patriarchal identity
system, but the first official ruling on the matter was when the Jews left
The children of Jewish fathers and non-Jewish mothers were left behind!
It's in the Tanakh, Sammy! 2600 years
ago! It's been that way ever since, whether you're Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Iraqi, Roman, whatever (except for the remote
groups who either didn't get the news 2600 years ago, ignored it when it came,
or forgot about it over millenia of
separation).
I doubt any of this will change your strong opinion on the matter, but I am not
just saying this because it was handed down to me, I actually researched it
quite thoroughly because I am the product of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother
myself! Think on this.
Ben
--------------------------------------------------------
Charlie Barkin wrote Saturday, January 9, 2010 8:11 PM :
Re: COMMENT - FOLLOWUP - Re: QUESTION: WHO IS A JEW ?
Hi Sammy,
The Rabbis on Askmoses.com are Orthrodox and have
very good explanations.
My suggestion is to ask them.
Your Chaver,
Charlie
-------------------------------------------------
YOUR COMMENTS PLEASE !
I NEED TO NAIL THIS
DOWN IN THIS LIFETIME
Previous posts follow :
On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 6:40 PM, Sammy Benjamin <sammybenjamin@gmail.com>
wrote:
- On 1/9/10, Yafa S. wrote:
Hi,
Whatever be the case,
the fact that we have been taught by our grand and
great grand parents right from the childhood is the
following:
"if a child's mother is not Jewish, then the child is not
Jewish".
I really never felt the
need to examine the trueness of this but do
accept this fact entirely (let it be supported or not).
Best regards,
YAFA
Sammy Benjamin replied :
Dear Yafa,
Thank you for your response.
I think most people are like you and learned this answer because I must assume
your ancestors were Ashkenazim Jews where this rule seems to have changed from
the original biblical commandments that is read over and over again in our
Torah even today, i.e. The
son of Avraham, Issach and Yakov.
I am learning that the Sephardic Jews follow the original commandment that the FATHER is the passer of the Jewish faith to his
children. I have personally experienced about what happens when a
women gets married into another faith/religion and hence I know this is the
right thing.
But you are entitled to your opinion irregardless of not having done any
background research. Again most people think like this so I am not trying to
embarrass you but rather to encourage you to find the truth and believe in
the right thing.
Let us find out what is WRITTEN IN THE ORIGINAL
SCRIPTURES and DON'T MERELY ACCEPT THE CHANGED/MODIFIED INTERPRETATIONS WHICH
WAS DONE FOR A SPECIFIC DIFFERENT REASON which I will reveal later. It
seriously affects the recognition of many mixed families as Jewish because of
this blind acceptance of FLAWED LAWS based on ASSUMPTIONS and INCORRECT
INTERPRETATION.
Regards,
Sammy
-
|
--- On Sat, 9/1/10, Sammy Benjamin <sammybenjamin@gmail.com>
wrote:
Have
we become puppets that we follow rules that are wrongly interpreted
? |
YOUR COMMENTS PLEASE !
I NEED TO NAIL THIS
DOWN IN THIS LIFETIME
ORIGINAL EMAIL :
|
On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Sammy Benjamin <sammybenjamin@gmail.com> wrote: WHO IS A JEW ? Original
text here : http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/202/Q1/ YOUR COMMENTS PLEASE !
COMMENTS-1 : JAN 27,
2010 1. T. Spitz
wrote on Tuesday, January 26, 2010, 9:26 PM Hi Sammy: I see that you have made up your
mind and decided to fight for what you believe is right. It is a
battle for principles and surely a very interesting one. I have
followed your entire published debate including your friends
opinions. I have learned a lot. All I can say is to
wish you a lot of good luck and that all
your dreams, desires, needs and aspirations come true. As you know I am a migrant myself
and thought quite a few countries, continents, political and economic
systems, some of them extremely hostile to Jews including the Nazis and the
Soviet communism. Jewish identity had always been is a tough
subject. As we all are well aware, we still live in an extremely imperfect
and furthermore splintered world packed with contradictions.
Historically speaking, the humankind (as we know it) is still very young and
unsettled. Recent opening of communications
allow both movement and mixing of people from different backgrounds and
traditions. We Jews are part of that turmoil as any other human group
or society on this planet. Furthermore, our problem is magnified
by carrying with us thousands of years long
memories that are almost all in writing. After being spread all over
the planet for thousands of years we were always fully
participating in the surrounding cultures by retaining some uniqueness
and identity of our own. Recent (62 years ago) successful
attempts to unite us again in one country reflected on every Jew all over the
world. Jews under a variety of flags combined with the
unprecedented ability to move far from home (and our home traditions)
and to live more or less anywhere in the world makes it even
more complex. One of our many inherited features is to analyze to
oblivion, to compare, weigh and judge and mainly to debate again and
again makes us a unique ethnic group. Even if extremely small in
numbers we were called an eternal nation since antiquity. During that long journey at least
90% of Jews were lost by being either murdered,
absorbed, forced to convert and/or joined other cultures or
religions. However, for the fifth millennium in every
generation a small minority held on. Naturally, there had
been no way to avoid contradictions and identity crises
resulting in debates as is this one. Peculiar
situation that Judaism cannot be defined the way as any other religion,
nationality, civilization, culture, tradition, tribe, ethnic group etc. etc.
complicates everything even further. Dear Sammy, we are both in the middle
of this conflict and as you have experiences yourself, there are no easy
solutions and neither simple way out of the puzzles and traps this
problem offers. I still believe that for the sake
of Liron there could be relatively easy
pragmatic way out by fulfilling the requirements of those, into which
community you have fallen by accident of your relocation. To solve this
problem in your community would be most natural and convenient and less
frustrating. But all the other alternatives you have mentioned are also
applicable and valid. In any case you have the right to
pursue what you believe is right. It is Judaism at its best.
Whatever becomes your decision I trust it will come out right.
Nobody can take away from you who you are and what you are - a proud
Jew. Happy New Year of trees Tu BiShewat on Saturday. Dear Sammy, Aariela
and children, be well, much love from both of us, T. Spitz. -----
Original Message ----- From:
Sammy Benjamin To:
M. Housman Sent:
Wednesday, January 27, 2010 9:10 AM Subject:
Re: CONCLUSION & YOUR FINAL SAY - Re: WHO IS A JEW ? I read your
un-dated article about "Who Is a Jew, According to the Torah?
". On
Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Mordechai Housman <host@beingjewish.com> wrote: Have
you read Chapter 10 of the Book of Ezra? All
Orthodox Jews, both Sefardic and Ashkenazic, believe that being Jewish is passed down by the
mother. The
belief was not created or changed during WWII. It is
in the Talmud, which was written down 1,500 years ago, and was first
formulated in the form we know it several thousand years ago. This is an
historic fact, and can easily be proven. It's in the Talmud! The
Talmud, alongside the Jewish Bible, are the two
foundation stones to Judaism. You will never get Orthodox Jews to reject
them, or any part of them. YOU may choose not to recognize the Laws of
Judaism as they have been always kept, but we will never change the oldest
faith in the world to suit your beliefs. You are fighting a losing battle. It
will never happen, not in anyone's lifetime. Incidentally,
as to who authored the Mishnah in Kiddushin: it was G-d. M.
Housman -----
Original Message ----- From:
Sammy Benjamin To:
A. Herman; A. Fishman Cc:
M. Housman ; T. Spitz ; Sammy @b-inet Sent:
Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:33 PM Subject:
Fwd: CONCLUSION & YOUR FINAL SAY - Re: WHO IS A JEW ? I am sending
this to two more persons who are close to me so I can seek more channels of
learning that I will never get without having spend a large amount of time
like these people have in their lifetime. ----------
Forwarded message ---------- Original text here : http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/202/Q1/
--- On Wed, 1/27/10, M. Housman
wrote:
No one has ever said that the Jewish father is useless or
gives nothing to the raising of his children. The father is a model and a
teacher for the children. At the very least. You have already been given the Talmudic quotes you ask
for. They were at the bottom of the e-mail you sent me. You responded to it,
and I responded to your comment on it. M. Housman ---------- Forwarded message ----------
COMMENTS-2 : JAN 28,
2010 I want all to know that I am not fighting this issue
for my own recognition as a Jew. I know I am one and can prove it.
As far as I know my family tree, they were ALL Jews both mothers and fathers.
Myself Samuel, brother Daniel, sis-in-law Esther, father Solomon, mother Mozelle, dad's brothers Jacob, Ezra, sisters Diana
& Mozelle, grandfather Benjamin, grandmother
Elizabeth, maternal grandfather Elijah, mat. grandmother
Elizabeth, great grandfather Daniel, great grandmother Esther, mat. great grandmother Joseph, mat. great
grandmother Miriam. And it goes on. Most of my ancestors are buried in the
Jewish cemetery in Mumbai and others in rural areas of H. Vichinsk
wrote On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:10 AM, : Dear Sammy, I too have been following your inquiry
and debate on this particularly painful and frustrating topic. It is a
topic that has made a large tear in Jewish unity since the Reform
movement decided to accept patrilinial
decent which is your position. I personally don't feel learned enough
to declare that holy and learned Rabbi's have been wrong or accepting
unquestioningly for two thousand years the way the oral tradition has been
understood. These Rabbi's, who are from all
backgrounds an cultures, subscribe to a system, as do all halachic
Jews, that says that in matters of Jewish law, majority rules. The Talmud is full of the discussions and even the disagreements
between the Rabbi's in matters of determining Jewish
law. However, at some point the majority rules in one direction and that is
the law. Even the desenters, as learned as
they may be, must accept the ruling as law. This system has stood
the Jewish people well through the test of time. It has also produced a very
ethical and moral system which is a model for the world. This does not mean that every orthodox
Rabbi is a saint or even a wise person. It just means that he follows a
system to the best of his abilities. There are also mystical
implications involved in this particular aspect of Jewish tradition which are
not discussed in the traditional books, but more so in the Kabbalistic and Chassidic texts. I don't know the answers, but it
seems to me that each individual cannot decide for himself matters of Jewish
law. This would not lead to a lasting and cohesive religion which could
be passed on to future generations. I know that this has been a painful and
frustrating issue for you and my take on it may not be a comfort, but I hope
it brings you some measure of peace.
All the best to Ariella and the
children, H. Vichinsky
---------- Forwarded message ----------
|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENTS-3 : JAN 28, 2010
Video on Jews of Bombay follows
- Thanks to David Birwadkar of
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shula A., NY wrote on Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 4:47 PM :
Dear Sami
,
You are a wonderful Jew from
Best and Shabbat Shalom
,
Shula
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Shula,
Thank you for your kind words.
You said
: . So we must remember that our ancestors
were dark and we don't look down on any light skin Jew. I tend
to believe that the one who makes these kind of
statements is the one who is misinformed and was schooled by non informed
isolated educators and society.
Sammy wrote: Not sure I understand
what you meant, but I will answer it both ways.
I agree if you are saying that
neither the dark skinned Jews nor the white skinned Jews should look down on
each other or take upon a role of superiority by start judging others by their
own personal standards, customs and regional traditions.
If you say I am misinformed by
indicating that there is discrimination between the white and ethnic Jews then
I will ask : Why am I never given the Aliyah in the
orthodox synagogue for the last 5-8 years, nor my children are called to
participate in the services? Why is the African black Jew asked to start the
fan on Yom Kippur day because somebody forgot to do so ahead of time? Why do
Russian Jews have an easier time to immigrate to
Shula I know you only mean well, so I am happy that you gave your
opinion in this matter.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mordechai Housman wrote on Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM :
YoIYou do NOT have an
open mind.
-
M. Housman
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sammy wrote:
Sorry if I portray that I do not
have an open mind. I am very candid with my comments and this might shut off
people from responding favorably. I wish for you to take anything I said and
tell me why I am wrong in my understanding and if you can do so with supporting
data, then I will be willing to learn from your wisdom.
But both your messages did not
address the real issues but were only judgmental statements, hence I cannot
rationally get to know why you strongly believe that anything I say is wrong. I
wish I could talk with you more on a friendlier level so we can maybe find a
solution to this age old dispute about the FATHER or the MOTHER or BOTH being
the passer of Jewish faith to their children.
PEACE & SHALOM
.
-
Sammy
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.b-inet.com/sammy/bombay-jews
COMMENTS-4 : JAN 29, 2010
Daniel B. from
|
Abraham
originated from today's Iraqi area, those people are not dark but have
whitish complex, most Indian Jews are whitish
complex on slightly darker side. This change must be because of harsh sun in Konkan area of I
am not a scientist or expert on subject but just a commonsense imagination. Daniel
B., ----------------------------------- Mordechai Housman
wrote on Thursday, January 28, 2010 10:57 PM : Please
stop e-mailing me. M. Housman. |
-----------------------------------
Dear Daniel,
Thank you for your comment. I agree
and it makes perfect sense based on the region where our Jewish forefathers
came from. As long as we agree that we had the same forefathersJ.
Dear Mordechai,
You seem to have shut yourself out
and those who ignore problems don’t solve them. Because problems don’t go away
they just fester in the background and then become bigger issues to manage
while we ignore them and pretend or hope that they will go away or die a
natural death.
So we have to bite the bullet,so to speak, and try to
find a solution to this problem, which you do not seem to have, but are
indirectly part of as being one kind of Jew that makes us related. Let us not
be like the ostrich, who digs a hole in the ground
quickly in the face of the greatest danger and put his head into it to pretend
that the problem is not there or will go away by itself. Sorry to say this
leaves the ostrich at the fate of the danger which at times has big time
negative consequences.
This is my last email to
you Mordechai, as you have asked me not to contact
you. Be well.
All,
Here is something funny that Joel
Malkar (from
Some of you may have
heard this story before... but have you heard the updated version? Be sure to read to the end to see what really happened. It has a
moral for what we are discussing.
|
AAMEN & SHABBATH SHALOM !
Reflect
on these items about WHO IS A JEW this Shabbath.
CLOSING COMMENTS & CONSIDERATIONS – JAN 30 - 2010
CLOSING Comments: CONCLUSION & YOUR FINAL SAY -
Re: WHO IS A JEW ?
Saturday, January 30, 2010 8:01 PM
From:
This sender is DomainKeys verified
"Sammy Benjamin" <sammybenjamin@gmail.com>
To:
"AllJews"
<alljews@b-inet.com>
I reflected back on all the information and the comments
send in by many Jewish souls. I know I have not heard from those who are afraid
of commenting or want nothing to do with this issue because it does not affect
them. But I don't fell bad, because I feel I have
provide an open forum to share your thoughts and allow you to refute any of the
points or provide additional information that could prove me wrong.
Despite of all that is said and done we need to go back to the source which the
orthodox rabbis used to interpret the rule of motherly Jewish descent.
|
"When the L-rd your G-d brings you to the
land that you will inherit, many nations will fall away before you; the Hittites,
the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Prizites, the Hivites and the Jebusites... And you shall not marry with them; do not
give your daughters to his sons and do not take his daughters for your sons. For
he will turn your son away from me and they will
worship other gods...." BEFORE See
no evil
Hear no
evil
Speak no evil
|
|
In Peace &
Pursuit of Truth, COMMENTS-5 : JAN 31, 2010 It is encouraging to hear from
people who really care about this problem. This is just one of many
discriminatory rules that we deal with in our Jewish world. I have given my
side of the equation and found that the other side of the equation is
unbalanced while our most learned ones stay silent and allow such
injustices to happen in from of their own eyes. Or like one such learned
person did, shut themself off from the problem because
they has been trained to close his mind and accept the flawed laws of Judaism
and forsake what God really indented of us to follow.
I will present some critical
important feedback along with my inference. Feedback from JK and Shula are REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES that CANNOT BE
IGNORED. WE
NEED TO FIX THIS PROBLEM TODAY. -------------------------------------------------------- Sunday,
January 31, 2010 9:25 AM From:
"Sammy Benjamin" <sammybenjamin@yahoo.com> To:
JK, Israel Cc:
Daniel B. , Israel
------------------------ Sammy Benjamin
writes : This is sending chillingly shivers
across my spine to realize if there is a culturally acceptable trait that
the Europeans have used to separate themselves from others ethnic groups.
The Germans had this
kind of thinking. They thought that purity of
blood and a certain type of Aryan descent of DNA is what differentiated between
superior humans who deserved to live versus those who did not carry these
traits who were inferior humans that deserved to be destroyed. They used this
thinking and spread this via false propaganda to make the majority of the
German population believe that this was the normal way of thinking, and brain
washed the people into thinking that their ASSUMED/INTERPRETED AGENDA was the
right one to follow and accept it as UNIVERSAL LAW.
When the Germans started their
assault on the Jews during WWII based on their accepted superiority laws,
it was easier for the Jewish neighbors to see their fellow Jews to be dragged
into the streets and separated from their family and homes while everybody
else watched from their drawn curtains and counted their blessings that their
own family was safe at that time.
Little did they know they were
just waiting in line to be served the same treatment? I know it is really
painful for those who endured this unfair treatment; hence I will stop here
about what happened due to this attitude of the European Jews.
Today, I feel the same way, being dragged into the streets
by supremacist Jews and having to prove with certificates
over certificates why my son deserves to get his barmitzva
done in the orthodox synagogue where I went for 9 years. And all my fellow Jews are watching from
behind their curtains, because this is not their problem and will
probably never affect them in this life time. You know that your fate can
change any time (*check
story about lion and the mouse – attached at end). I don’t want any sympathy; I want your support; if you believe that it is the right of
every observant Jew to be recognized as Jewish. See the spine
chilling similarities that I find in supremacist humans?
|
|
O GOD, I hope I am wrong
and it feels like too many “name sake” Jews have infiltrated into the camps
of Israel to control over those who can be easily brain washed or bought over
with bribery.
People like myself who seek the truth and fight back to get our true
and deserving rights are usually eliminated, insulted, humiliated and
ignored. - Sammy Benjamin ------------------------ Sunday, January 31, 2010 5:55 AM From: "Ilan Bloch Hi Sammy S/he would also then be allowed to
eat chicken/turkey, together with milk, and would not need to say brachot before eating. One who works along this logic
should take it to the nth degree. Again, I am not saying that it is wrong to
raise the question; Halachic authorities should
certainly re-examine the issue, but one must be careful about throwing out
the baby with the bathwater. Of course, any Jew
who discriminates against another Jew (or non-Jew) based on the colour of his skin should be severely condemned. Dear Ilan, Your comments are good from a
neutral point of view and are valid to maintain our Jewish traditions. I
agree with you that ALL laws cannot be discounted as invalid just
because they are either incorrect or flawed interpretations. But all those laws that fit this category and cause
injustice and discrimination among the Jewish communities need to be
addressed seriously and correctly ASAP so we can be fair to our people and allow
for God’s commandments to be followed as they were intended to be
followed. As you say in your conclusion,
NOBODY has the right to discriminate and be allowed to become |
|
How fair is this in the eyes of
God and who are they trying to cheat. No matter what happens, these
“superior” Jews will have to face God one day and explain why they
did so to the less fortunate Jews who are serving him equally. Regards, Sammy. ---------------------------------- Sunday, January 31, 2010 10:15 AM From : "Shula Aizer" Dear
Sami , I am
heartbroken to hear how you and your family have been treated for the
last years. I have no words to say how awful it is. Did you ask why and what
was the answer? Are you a member in that Shoul
and where did Sifron have his Bar Mitzvah ? What a bigotry ! How
it can be explained that one orthodox shul in And
sure, you came and brought in your beautiful bright Aariella
and we loved you both. I agree with you hundred present that the Jews
from What
I meant in my email was that I think that originally all the Jews had dark
skin. Those who were taken by force to Over
the years in the I
think that if want to make a change we must get together in a movement and
raise our voices to the Knesset and to the public in Have
you spoken to Chabbad Rabbis ?
What to they say ?
Shula --------------------------------------------------- Sammy Benjamin replied : I
have been fortunate to be welcome in any shul in My
first son’s brit was conducted at synagogue Augadas Achim and I was told
they were so happy and honored to have this celebration in their shul. But I have to admit that the question of my
Jewish roots did come up at this time and the rabbi at that time was
diplomatic enough to bridge the gap between my needs and the needs of the
orthodox rabbinate to keep all parties happy to get the needed rituals
done in the shul and in a timely manner. I used
to be apologetic because Sifron would cry during
services but I was always told that all members were happy to hear the voice
a young Jewish child in the shul which was a great
mitzvah for them. I
will always miss Augadas Achim
and wish it the best and remain thankful to all the people who have been my
well wishers and do everything to support the shul’s
activities to keep Judaism ALIVE in Kingston despite all the hardships that
are presented to the shul. I
was welcome in my shul in NC at both orthodox shuls, and hence I am trying to protect them as they are
not the KEY REASONS for this PROBLEM. They are merely MISGUIDED and BRAIN
WASHED as any other Jews and I think they are allowed to make mistakes as any
other human being does. Of course I am not happy that one person can make
a difference in keeping the door closed for Liron
to get a barmitzva service because he believes in
the discriminatory ways of Judaism even though he may be doing so in a
subconscious manner. He
truly must believe he is doing this for a good cause to protect Judaism
from non-true jews based on what
he learned in his yeshiva. I think real life experiences teaches us much more
than anybody can learn in a classroom, even though theory is good to have but
not the sole measure of wisdom. The classroom can give you a lot of
theory but it does not give you a good way to apply it to real life
situations to deploy knowledge learned in the classroom. To compensate for the lack of skills to make the right
determination, they have made these static interpreted laws, based on “one
glove fits all” strategy, that are deemed as the final ruling when
they need to decide in any given matter. This stops them for using their
own mind and reasoning to apply any adjustment to make a fair decision.
SAD state of affairs we are forced to live with today. I forgive my rabbi if he is wrong in his
decision, and I ask for forgiveness if I have wronged him
in any manner for asking for my rights to be
recognized as a Jew in my/his shul
to do the barmitzva of my son. I did not confront my shul until now
because I wanted to “fit in” and not make a big deal
out of the issue of discrimination against my family. I did not deal with
this problem with Sifron’s barmitzva
because I went to The Chabad
Rabbi is telling me they cannot use their own judgment in matter of
who is Jewish but blindly follow the orders of the orthodox authority in
NY city who demands only those documents which they deems as
qualifying that will satisfy their rules of recognizing a Jew.
After trying to comply with all the documents that I have, they are deemed as
not sufficient to them. So here is what I am forced to decide. I formally boycott the recognition of any
such authority who has discriminated against true
Jews since the creation of CAN ANYBODY HELP ME
GET A CONTACT IN I WANT JUSTICE
TO BE SERVED TO ALL OF GOD’S JEWS IN AN EFFORT TO BRING JEWS OF ALL ORIGIN TOGETHER
AND PROVIDE RECOGNITION TO ALL THOSE WHO ARE TRULY JEWISH AND DESERVE TO HAVE
THE SAME RIGHTS AS ANY OTHER JEW IN ISRAEL. – Samuel Benjamin. * Reference story from
above comment.
(PS: Thanks to the snow storm which dumped snow and ice on our
streets, I was glued to my computer all day, skipped lunch and worked on this
portion of the discussion. ) From:
Zalman Teitelbaum Date:
Sunday, January 31, 2010, 10:52 AM BS"D Dear Sammy, I don't remember you
clearly but we may have met a the Synagogue in I recently began receiving emails
from you, most of which were positive and interesting. I don't have time to
read much, but one email which you sent recently
disturbed me. It was an email regarding the matralinical
Jewish descent. the gist of the email is irrelevant but there was one glaring
err which I hope was only that. From that err
there were other incorrect and irreverent conclusions but I don't
thing that those would have resulted other than for this err. In your email you refer to the
conclusions of the rabbis trough the ages as
"interpretation". In fact, (as we learn in this week's parsha) the torah, and its
explanation was not interpreted, it was "transmitted". Yes, many conclusions are 'interpreted' to
their final outcome but even those interpretations are only done in
instances where the "transmission" allows and in fact, calls
for it. In conclusion, the Torah,
including its explanation and practical application was given to Moses by G-d
on If you are uncomfortable by this,
that's fine, it is within your right, but please remove
me from your list. Respectfuly, Zalman Teitelbaum Sammy Benjamin wrote : Thank you for writing to me in
this matter and I am sorry if I have disturbed you with my findings which I
find true to the facts that I have presented. You can point to any specific item that I have listed and comment on
it to explain why you think I am wrong. An older
conversation with my close friends and Rabbi : Sammy
Benjamin wrote on Monday, December 21, 2009 11:50 AM : Dear S and M, AND NEVER SAYS "SON
of SARAH, RIVKA and LEAH" Rabbi wrote on Sunday, January 10, 2010 2:13 PM Dear Sammy, I also appreciate that we can learn from each other. Part
of really loving someone else is appreciating that G-d created us with our
own minds and hearts and that we are all seeking to do the right thing as we
understand it. I know that you only have good intentions and that you are
coming from a very loving and kind place in this discussion. I am not going to defend any position, I just think it is
important to understand it, whether or not we end up agreeing with it. So I
will devote some time in my e-mail to this. Concerning this supposition: <<"On another subject, if I remember right the ruling to
consider MOTHER for determining religion of her child came in 13th
century when Genghis Khan troops raped every woman they were able to reach in
both Asia and Europe. >> Since it is the Mishna that
mentions the idea of Jewish descent from the mother, the idea that this
started in the 13th century wouldn't work. The Mishna
was written in 200 CE, about 1,000 years before Gengis
Khan and was accepted by all Jews at that time who
had access to it all throughout I understand your thinking that the Biblical text
prescribes Jewishnesss after the father and that
these rabbis changed from the Biblical standard. The only thing is that the Mishnaic and Talmudic sages didn't think that the
Biblical text was the only source of information about what Jewish law was. You can find an example of this here where the Torah
literally says not to have a fire in your house on Shabbat and the sages
understand this to mean "kindle" a fire in your house on Shabbat.
The Saducees and Karaites
however, did not have Shabbat candles or hot food on Shabbat, because they
followed the Biblical text literally. See here for more:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/484251/jewish/Why-do-we-eat-Cholent-on-Shabbat.htm You can also see it in the idea of when the Omer was
supposed to be counted. The Torah literally says the day after Shabbat, and
the sages says this doesn't literally mean Shabbat, it means, the first day
of Passover, see here: http://www.jewfaq.org/holidayb.htm I am not defending the Oral Tradition here, I am just
explaining why there doesn't seem to be movement away from it in traditional
Judaism. There are a lot of things in the Torah that when reading them would
appear to be different from the way Jews have kept them for the past
1500 years, but the sages during that period of time, thought that they were
getting this information from an extant Oral Tradition. And they believed
that this Oral Tradition was the key to interpreting the Written Torah (even
if it looked different than what the Torah literally said - they thought that
this is the Oral teaching of what the Written Torah always meant.) I
understand your interpretation of the Biblical text to point to the Jewish
father as the source of being Jewish. To the people
who think that Oral Tradition is also from G-d, there could be 20 such
interpretations from the Biblical text and it wouldn't make a difference to
them, if they thought that the Oral Tradition contained different
information. They also didn't think it possible to go back and
personally re-interpret Biblical texts. That is why there is no change in
this issue of matrilineal descent amongst these types of Jewish
communities. Even if you could bring very strong Biblical proofs to
something, they will not change the rabbinic standard, as it is
found in the Mishna or Talmud, because they think
that the Mishna and Talmud is the correct way to
keep these Biblical passages, even
if the Biblical text seems to say the exact opposite. This is
not a modern approach - it is just a continuation of the way people like Saadiah Gaon, Rashi and Maimonides understood
how Jewish law functions. I am not trying to dispute in any way what you write,
certainly by going back to the Biblical text, different interpretations
can be generated. In explaining those who believe in matrilineal
descent, these interpretations will have limited impact, because they think that matrilineal descent is
the rule that G-d told Moses orally as the explanation of the Written
Torah. Note again, that I am not
defending this belief - I am just trying to explain what they think. I hope this helps in some way to *explain* what is going
on - not to defend it. I thank you for being willing to engage in this
discussion in such a respectful and kind manner I value you and your family so much. You are a gift
to our family, to our community and to the Jewish nation. With blessing, Rabbi. TZ
wrote on Monday, February 1, 2010 10:22 AM with Sammy’s reply :
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